Danielle Collins of Primavera Strategies for Wellbeing On How the World’s Best Leaders Build Burnout-Free Workplace Cultures

An Interview With Chad Silverstein

Your employees are your top priority, and whenever possible, reward them with generous salaries and health benefits that reflect their worth. If this isn’t doable yet at your organization, make it a top priority — and until then, focus on all the other ways you CAN build a Culture of Well-being.

In today’s high-pressure business landscape, burnout has become an epidemic affecting both employees and leaders. The question is — how can companies create workplace cultures that prioritize well-being without compromising performance? To dive into this important topic, we are interviewing Danielle Collins.

As a previous fundraiser and burnout survivor, Danielle Collins believes that it is the most passionate and committed employees who burn out, not the weakest. She returned to school to rebuild her career and then founded Primavera Strategies for Wellbeing. Today, Danielle is an author, coach, and speaker, helping dedicated leaders who are burning out to renew their passion.

Thank you so much for joining us in this interview series. Before we dive into our discussion, our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share with us the backstory about what brought you to your specific career path?

I am a former fundraiser and survivor of burnout, and I know well the exhaustion, stigma, and loneliness of feeling depleted on all levels. After going back to school, I founded Primavera Strategies for Wellbeing. I turned my burnout into a vocation to help others cope with the crisis, and today I’m an author, coach, and speaker.

I wrote Work Comes Third: Eradicating Burnout in Overwhelmed Leaders and Their Weary Employees, and Ignite Press will publish it this spring. We must put ourselves first, and then our families, and finally, our work.

Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you started your career?

When I was still a newbie coach, a distressed colleague asked me, “How can you help us retain our valuable employees?” Despite my challenges with burnout, as well as my initial training as a coach, I didn’t have an answer — yet!

I redoubled my efforts and soon understood that the opposite of burnout was total well-being — of our minds, bodies, and spirits. I earned many certifications and studying well-being became a meaningful way for me to create effective coaching programs and to jumpstart my clients on their journey back to health.

I wrote Work Comes Third to help people like my colleague prioritize their own well-being. In addition, I hope they retain their staff and build thriving teams. This book is a rallying cry for radical transformation of our working world.

You are a successful leader. Which three character traits do you think were most instrumental to your success? Can you please share a story or example for each?

My curiosity, perseverance, and authenticity are instrumental to my success as a professional coach, author, and speaker.

Curiosity

I am curious and love to learn. After burning out, I wanted to better understand all the critical questions I had repeatedly asked myself when I was struggling as an employee. I had wondered if I was fundamentally weak, which is interesting, because previously I’d been a committed employee. I worried there was something wrong with me for not wanting to be a “workhorse” anymore.

In my studies about burnout, I learned that there were many ways I could have taken better care of myself, but I repeatedly chose work over my own well-being. I also learned that when employees burn out, there are management issues. Now, one of my questions that I ask clients is, “What are the leadership issues that are leading you and your team to burnout?”

Perseverance

I have been described as the water that carves its way through rocks. At one point, I thought burnout was the most painful experience of my career and I wished it had never happened. As my body and spirit slowly recovered, I began finding the gift in my burnout.

In my coaching classes, I healed and saved myself. I also set my course to save others lost on the same destructive path. Now, I’m grateful for my descent into burnout. Without it, I would not have persevered to discover my career as a coach and author.

Authenticity

I’m at my best when I can be genuine, and my authenticity plays a big role in my writing and speaking. I share my own story of burnout so that others can connect, and I say the quiet part out loud.

Let’s now jump to the primary focus of our interview. Can you share a pivotal moment in your career when you realized the importance of creating a burnout-free workplace culture? How did it influence your approach to leadership?

I knew well my own detrimental experience of burnout, but wanted to talk with others who were suffering, to better understand their situation. I interviewed dozens of people who were overwhelmed at work. They shared private and intimate details about their downward spiral from feeling dedicated to deeply dissatisfied. I used what they shared to become a better coach, speaker, and writer.

One motivated leader struck me with both her honesty and desperation. She told me, “I will read everything you write, but I will NEVER share publicly that I’m struggling at work.”

Wow. Her comment reflected how hard our society is on perceived weakness at work. This talented director knew she needed help but likely was experiencing systemic dysfunction at her organization. When she shared this glimpse into her inner turmoil, I knew there must be countless people like her, silently enduring toxic cultures at work.

I shaped my career around helping people like her. As a coach, I build trust so that my clients can share their dark truths. As a speaker, I recognize the courage it takes for attendees to be publicly vulnerable. And as an author, I wrote Work Comes Third to directly address the societal pressures that shame those who struggle with unsustainable workloads.

What are some of the most common causes of burnout in today’s workplaces, and what signs should leaders look out for in their teams?

There are many causes of burnout, and I’m going to talk about three of them: workload, management, and values.

Workload

This is the number one thing to remember: set goals that are achievable, at a pace that’s sustainable. Over the decades, our jobs have become much more emotionally intense and intellectually demanding, and in many professions, we no longer enjoy slow periods of work. Instead, we jump from one goal to the next, rarely stopping to celebrate our progress. It’s time we recognize the stress is chronic, not short-term.

Management

Remember that burnout is about more than the number of hours your staff work; it’s also about how they’re supervised.

When good leaders empower us to make decisions on our own about projects at work, we feel inspired and supported. When managers instead micromanage our efforts, we lack autonomy and don’t have control. We feel misunderstood and frazzled.

Values

When our values match the values of our workplace, everything is great! It’s possible our values don’t match, though. Research shows that people can’t remain long in an environment where our values are greatly conflicting. When the value doesn’t fit, we’re more likely to burn out.

In addition, we may feel cynical when we see that there is a great difference between what an organization says it values, versus how it treats its employees.

Signs of Burnout

Leaders should watch for signs of burnout, in themselves as well as in their employees. According to the World Health Organization, the three symptoms of burnout are exhaustion, cynicism, and ineffectiveness.

When we’re exhausted, we feel depleted and fatigued on all levels. When we feel cynical, we don’t think we fit in with our team. When we feel ineffective, we don’t produce our best work.

On a scale from one to ten, where are you with each symptom of burnout? I also encourage you to check in with your team. Are they experiencing exhaustion, cynicism, or ineffectiveness? Remember that for people to openly share, you must have first earned their trust.

How do you personally balance the need to drive results with the need to ensure employee well-being?

As a solopreneur, I run my business on my own and this question refers to my own health. I balance the need to drive results with my well-being by being aware of my inner critic.

We all have voices in our heads that are unkind. I understand that one of my voices is a hyper-achiever who believes my worth comes from what I produce. Another voice likes things to be perfect. When I listen to them, I don’t acknowledge my progress and feel frustrated, rather than grateful.

I’m learning to set these voices aside and to embrace curiosity and creativity. This is not a quick fix, but a lifelong intention, and I benefit from a village of people who keep me on track. Fellow buddy coaches, friends, and of course, my therapist — all of these folks help me to focus on my innate worth, rather than my to-do list.

What role does communication play in creating a burnout-free workplace, and how can leaders foster open dialogue about mental health and work-life balance?

The role of communication is critical in creating a Culture of Well-being. Leaders have the opportunity to model well-being themselves, as well as communicating openly about their decisions, so that the staff feel safe following their example.

It’s also important that employees know how to communicate their needs in a healthy way and feel comfortable being authentic with their teammates.

When I burned out, I did not communicate with my boss. I wish I had said, “I feel like I’m burning out. I want you to know that it’s the most dedicated employees who burn out, not the laziest.”

In Work Comes Third, I talk about how important it is that we can say, “no” at work. We haven’t seen this successfully modeled by our bosses or teammates, so saying “no” is challenging and scary. We need to say “no” to unmanageable workloads and lack of autonomy over our assignments.

A Culture of Well-being provides safety and acceptance for employees to speak up. Leaders play a major role by rewarding employees who share how they feel, even when it’s negative. This ultimately creates a team that is more innovative and engaged, as well as well as mentally fit, resilient, and fulfilled in life outside of work.

What is your take on traditional corporate norms, like long working hours and “always-on” availability? Are these practices outdated, or do they still have a place in certain industries?

Boooo. . . Hissss. . . I give five, green-faced, vomiting emojis to the corporate norms of always being available. Some industries, such as tech and social media, think that overwork is a badge of honor, and they celebrate an “ideal employee” who can work 24/7.

Overwork is NOT a badge of honor. Let me say that again. . . Overwork is NOT a badge of honor. I feel sad for the employees expected to always be available for work. Furthermore, no one is always available. No one. And we feel doubt and insecurity when we compare ourselves to this ideal employee who never needs rejuvenation.

Some are even expected to sleep in the office. Ugh. Let me spell it out: Don’t sleep where you work, unless it’s a well-timed power nap in the afternoon. Go home, live a full and colorful life, and enjoy the company of those you love the most. There’s no place in our new working world for this irresponsible and quick path to burnout.

Here’s what is true:

• While it is important to achieve goals at work, it’s even more important that we recognize that our own individual value is inherent and not based on what we produce.
• We have bought into an ugly myth that when you’re paid to be the best, you need to be your best, and this requires that you be available 24/7. This myth doesn’t serve us, and we don’t have to sell our souls. The salary doesn’t have to be equated with a distressing amount of overtime. Healthy organizations want peak performance from their employees, and they understand that to be their best, these employees need a full life outside of work.

Higher pay is likely equated with more responsibility. The leaders with more responsibility, however, are humans, and they have the same needs to rejuvenate as everyone else. When each of us can take care of ourselves and our families, we are free to create greatness at work. Also, it is the leaders who model well-being for their employees who inspire loyalty and dedication.

Ok, let’s dig into actionable strategies. Based on your experience and research, can you share “5 Ways to Build a Burnout-Free Workplace Culture”? If you can, please include examples or stories for each.

1. Celebrate that Work Comes Third.

Because you want your employees to enjoy well-being on all levels, Work Comes Third. While we believe we must relentlessly prove our value based on our achievements, we innately deserve greater well-being. We were born inherently worthy! It is also true that we will be better employees if we take care of ourselves first.

• Ensure that self-care is part of all job descriptions, giving your employees permission to put their own needs, and the needs of their family, before work.
• Leaders must consciously model this ethos for their team, every day.
• As you move towards greater well-being, choose goals that are fun and small. You don’t have to improve everything all at once. Whew!

2. Reward Your Employees.

Employees are working more and more, and when they don’t receive appropriate income or recognition, they feel devalued.

• Your employees are your top priority, and whenever possible, reward them with generous salaries and health benefits that reflect their worth. If this isn’t doable yet at your organization, make it a top priority — and until then, focus on all the other ways you CAN build a Culture of Well-being.
• Remember that money is a top reason people leave. In the past, there was an unhealthy expectation that employees should under-value themselves because they’re passionate about the strategic goals — but this is an outdated way of thinking and in reality, their passion doesn’t pay their bills. Their ample paycheck does.
• Consider holding off on hiring until you’ve reviewed the compensation of all your current employees, and make sure every person feels valued. Perhaps it’s ok to rebuild with a smaller, well-paid team who feels cherished.

In addition, consider the intrinsic rewards of work as well.

• With each assignment, help your employee understand the importance of her work, to increase her satisfaction and fulfillment. Employees who don’t see how their talents help the organization fulfill its mission are more likely to burn out.
• Make “How Your Role makes a Difference” part of every job description.
• Rather than waiting for year-end goals to be met, regularly celebrate your small wins each day.

3. Don’t Overwork. Sustain.

Leaders must ensure the workload of every employee is manageable, at a pace that’s sustainable.

• By basing the goals on a history of success, you can ensure they are attainable. Also make sure the goals are reasonable by basing them on proper staffing, time, and resources.
• When an employee quits, don’t re-assign his projects without fully understanding the existing workload of remaining employees. If you don’t have the necessary people-power, you are empowered to adjust your goals and timelines.
• Create a space for flow so your employees can completely immerse themselves in a task. To minimize distractions, let them tuck away their phones, shut their doors, and respond to emails later. You will love doing this as well!

4. Enjoy Healthy Boundaries.

Recognizing that everyone needs a rich and vibrant life outside of the office, promote healthy boundaries between work and home.

• Insist that your employees end their workdays without much overtime and expect them to turn off their computer and phone notifications.
• Respecting the needs of your team to rejuvenate at home, do NOT contact them after hours or on vacation.
• To reduce peer pressure that keeps employees in the office, offer mandatory vacations, which means every person takes a scheduled vacation, multiple times a year, guilt-free!

5. Trust Your Employees First.

Don’t wait for your employees to trust you. Instead, choose to trust them first! As you trust your employees to produce great results, they’ll not only take the initiative, they’ll feel fully accepted at work. Here are meaningful ways to express your faith in your staff:

• Create policies that reflect your appreciation for the herculean efforts of single parents and caregivers.
• Employees need flexibility, so whenever possible, let your staff choose their own work schedule. Also, whenever possible, allow your employees who desire to work from home. Make sure you don’t favor employees who work in the office when you award salary increases and promotions.
• Employees see micromanagement as a lack of trust, so train problem managers to release control and empower staff.

What do you say to skeptics who believe that creating a burnout-free culture may come at the cost of productivity or profits?

I have never seen any research saying that treating your employees like expendables is good for the bottom line. This doesn’t mean it’s not out there. But every article I have read on the subject goes into detail about the horrors that ensue for the organization when there is high burnout. Why? Because it leads to high turnover rates and all the related costs.

In addition to the expense of recruitment, remember that the remaining staff likely have increased workloads and lower morale — and that they’re at risk of burning out as well. Your team may experience a decrease in performance as well as a loss of institutional knowledge. Yikes.

Organizations that enjoy a Culture of Well-being have a strategic advantage. They will retain their valuable employees, reduce their costs, and fulfill their missions. It turns out that doing the right thing by your employees is also good for your productivity and profits.

Can you share a real-world example of a team or organization where prioritizing employee well-being led to unexpected or exceptional results?

You bet! I coached, “Sharon,” a talented and motivated executive director for almost two years. During that time, she impressed me with her desire for even greater mental fitness and resilience, as well as her ability to be open and vulnerable in our sessions.

One of her employees, “Emily” had the courage to share that she felt overwhelmed and was considering quitting. Sharon listened. Instead of losing a long-time, valuable employee, she worked with Emily to create a way forward. This included reduced work hours for six weeks. It also included coaching with me!

I was delighted to work with Emily and found her to be creative and bright. She was ready to feel good again. Emily went from feeling exhausted and wanting to quit to eventually earning herself a promotion and raise, and she is now a director. In addition, Sharon supported her by hiring another employee to help with the workload.

What might have happened if Emily didn’t feel safe sharing her distress? Likewise, what might have happened if Sharon hadn’t listened? That organization would have lost a dedicated employee. That didn’t happen, however, and in July, Emily will celebrate nine years at that nonprofit. Woohoo!

Coaching is confidential. Please know that both Sharon and Emily gave their permission to tell their stories, as well as change their names.

How can leaders in high-pressure industries (like tech, finance, or healthcare) realistically apply these principles without falling behind on deadlines or performance goals?

A key principle I have shared is to make sure there is enough staff, time, and resources to complete your goals. If these are not in place, then the timeline needs to shift, or the goals need to be changed. This is not due to weakness on the part of your staff, but it is the reality for long-term success. I realize this is not the easy answer you may have wanted, so keep reading.

It takes patience and kindness to build relationships with leaders and directors, to help them understand how your team operates and what they need to succeed. It takes courage to show them your strategic plan and to say, “You’re suggesting we take on an additional project. Here are all the other goals we have this year. Which one would you like us to cut, to do yours? Or perhaps you’d like to hire additional staff?” Folks quickly learn not to mess with your plan.

This is the fundamental conversation that needs to be happening in every conference room, to protect teams and keep employees from overwhelm and exhaustion. When team leaders can do this, then fewer employees will burn out, and the company will be better able to retain its staff, build thriving teams, and meet its ambitious goals.

What trends or innovations are you seeing in workplace well-being and culture that excite you the most?

In my book, Work Comes Third, I share many exciting trends and valuable resources. I get excited about mandatory vacations, where everyone must take a scheduled vacation, multiple times a year. I also love the idea of prescribing nature to employees, and giving them time off to explore local landscapes. Furthermore, I believe each profession needs a code of ethics that includes our own well-being as our number-one priority.

Sometimes, in companies that view employees as consumables, leaders may offer a perk, such as mindfulness training, gym memberships, or healthy snacks — with the hope that the band-aid will help staff bear the systemic dysfunction and unfair conditions.

Trends and innovations work best in organizations that are creating a Culture of Well-being. These leaders are actively tackling issues of overwork and micromanagement, and they fundamentally understand that burnout is not an individual problem, but a sign of an unhealthy work environment.

In your opinion, how does a burnout-free culture impact a company’s long-term success, its relationships with employees, and even its customers?

I have been reminding nonprofits for years that when they create a Culture of Well-being, their employees (including fundraisers and program staff) will thrive. When they are successful with this, they will have greater longevity in their organizations. This will result in improved relationships with even more donors, a corresponding increase in giving, and greater success as nonprofits better fulfill their missions. Everyone and everything that they serve will benefit.

The lessons from the nonprofit world resonate in the corporate and government spheres as well. Your programs, and ultimately the people you serve, are at risk when the well-being of your staff is compromised. Helping all organizations to reduce their high rate of turnover is a game-changer for our society!

You are a person of great influence. If you could start a movement to help more companies embrace burnout-free workplace cultures, what would it be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂

As a previous fundraiser and burnout survivor, I’m pioneering a movement to create a culture where Work Comes Third. It’s time to talk openly and without shame about the crisis of work overload and poor management in our organizations.

How can our readers further follow you online?

I would love to connect! You can subscribe to receive emails and articles on my website.

In addition, let’s connect on LinkedIn.

This was great. Thank you so much for the time you spent sharing with us.

About the Interviewer: Chad Silverstein is a seasoned entrepreneur with 25+ years of experience as a Founder and CEO. While attending Ohio State University, he launched his first company, Choice Recovery, Inc., a nationally recognized healthcare collection agency — twice ranked the #1 workplace in Ohio. In 2013, he founded [re]start, helping thousands of people find meaningful career opportunities. After selling both companies, Chad shifted his focus to his true passion — leadership. Today, he coaches founders and CEOs at Built to Lead, advises Authority Magazine’s Thought Leader Incubator.

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Danielle Collins of Primavera Strategies for Wellbeing On How the World’s Best Leaders Build… was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.